The DEFINATIVE Monitor Thread

[adnadeau]

You haven't mentioned if you hear the solenoid damper operating. If you check the Normal Timing Chart in the service manual, you'll see it is on for pre-combustion and Low & Low-Med operation and off for Hi-Med and High. The combustion is shown as a two-speed unit which kicks up to High speed for the High heat setting. The schematic shows 110 VAC across the combustion blower for High and 88 VAC for low.

[HayZee518]

the fuel is not mixed with air before it combusts. it is fed directly to the burner mat.

[Keith]

OK... I've been paying a little closer attention than before and I hear what must be the solenoid damper. I also confirmed for myself that the combustion blower is single-speed and the room blower is two-speed. The fuel pump si also two-speed. When my heater turns on I hear a click and the combustion blower quietly begins the purge. After a few minutes I hear a thump (I assume this is the damper solenoid, either opening or closing, I don't know, and I don't know where it is) and the air speed in the chamber increases and I begin to see a glow in the bottom of the burn pot. This is when the fuel pump also starts, at its slower rate, and I have 4 of 8 "power lights" on. A minute or so later I see little blue flames creeping up into the vent holes at the top of the burn pot. Then I hear the thump (damper?) again and the air flow slows and the blue flame craps out and goes to a tall, mostly yellow flame with a little green flame around the vent holes. This is what soots up the window. It burns like this for several minutes until it reached the temp it wants, then drops to 2 of 8 power lights. Then a minutes ot 2 later, the lights go out, the fuel pump stops, the damper goes thump again, the air speed in the chamber kicks up, and the flame starts to go blue as it dies out. It purges for a few minutes, then shuts off. If I crank the thermostat up, forcing it to kick into high power, the change from med to high involves the damper thump, faster air through the chamber, the room fan kicks up, and the flame goes blue. After this, when it slows back down, I get the slower air, yellow flame, etc. It seems to me like the air speed in the chamber should stay high even at the low-med burn level. This would keep the flame blue. Any ideas?

[Keith]

Yeah, HayZee, I replaced the mat with a nice one per your guidance from McM-C. While I had everything open I figured out that the fuel hits the mat, disperses itself through wicking action, begins to vaporize with the heat from the ignitor, finally ignites, then is pulled upward by the air current passing around and over the top of the burn pot overhead. It seems like a venturi thing or something. I never was good with carburetors.

[Keith]

So what does an air pressure switch do? The little black tubing on mine was cracked so I had to snip a little off the end and reattach it. It reaches now, but barely. I need to replace it. Would that affect my flame? Oh, and does the tube attach to the top or bottom hole? Mine's on the top hole. And my wires attach to the lower contact and the furthest one from that. There's one in the middle with nothing on it.

[HayZee518]

the air proving switch measures the differential between the blower output and the air in the pot. when it is operating it closes a normally open mini microswitch mounted on the switch diaphragm. the two outer terminals, common and normally open. if this switch wasn't operating then you wouldn't get the fuel pump to operate at all. change the tubing next time you have the chance. because this switch is so critical try to avoid short pieces and no kinks in the tubing. the flame color(s) you described are typical. the sooting is from the lack of combustion air. the location of the solenoid damper is the lower left side inside the housing. all it is is a plastic flapper on a pivot that partially blocks or opens a passage in the shroud. the only o ring so many talk about is just a seal for the wires passing through the blower shroud. without this and silicone sealer air would leak out of the shroud. that air switch tubing leave it on the top hole, that's just an adjustment for the amount of air it takes to activate the diaphragm inside. don't ask me how it functions, it seems to go into the same area of the diaphragm unless there is another chamber inside.

[Keith]

GREAT! THANKS! The ever-so-talked-about o-ring or seal where the damper wires go into the shroud DOESN'T EXIST on my heater... hmmm... Sounds like a possible source of my problem. I'll find some way to MAKE a cover for that hole with the wires passing through it and see if that makes a difference. Thanks again! I'll let you know how it works. I'll also get my M-441 photo album put together pretty soon.

[Keith]

Thanks to a 1-3/8" rubber drain plug with a slit cut in it I plugged the hole at the base of the blower shroud where the 4 wires go through. That helped. The low-med power flame has blue around the vent holes, but a tall yellow flame still reaches the top of the chamber. The hi power flame is blue around the vent holes with tiny white tips, and a bright yellow flame pops/flashes every few seconds in the center. NOW what?!

I also got a multimeter that tests volts, amps and ohms, but the instructions aren't that good. I'll take any help you can offer.

[HayZee518]

I had that yellow flame problem when I had a M41 heater. The burner head got real warped and upset the air fuel balance. I replaced the burner dome and the flames went down in size but were still there. the air flow wasn't there so I was gonna change the blower bearings but I gave up and called the department of social services. they had a plan that they'd replace the heater at no charge to me. I claim to be low income because of social security and the monitor was my only source of heat. two inspectors came out and looked at it and both decided the unit had to go. three days later I had a new heater delivered. with the new heater I have no problems with flame flare up, but the problem was from low air flow to the combustion pot.

[Keith]

So I removed the 2 air intake restrictors; I plugged up the hole at the bottom of the blower shroud where the damper wires go in; I think my combustion blower is working okay; I hear the damper opening and closing when it's supposed to; I think all my gaskets are in good shape (I don't smell any fuel or exhaust when it's running)... but I'm still not getting an ideal flame. Is there anything else I should check?

By the way, when I opened up the burn chamber last night I noticed that my new burn mat (McM-C Hi Temp Silica Fabric Sheeting .090" - #8851K33) was not glued down in a couple areas. As I lifted the edges to place some more glue (McM-C Hi Temp Silicate Adhesive - #8850K11), I noticed that the mat material was fairly brittle. It started out tan and soft and flexible, and was now kinda shiny gold colored and pretty brittle. Lots of little fibers came off as I messed with it. The glue probably doesn't have a great bond since the bottom of the pot has a little rust/crud on it, and now lots of little fibers, but it looked like the mat was staying put.

I'm still thinking that there's got to be something I can do to get this thing to burn better (and I don't think it's just because I'm a perfectionist). I want my little window to stay clean so I can watch my little BLUE flames, darn it! Any suggestions, or do I just need to get over it already?

[HayZee518]

burner mat

I got some stuff that is flexible yet stiff. it is a coated acryllic sheet material that'll withstand temperatures in excess of 600 degrees. THIS is what I use for the burner mat. To fasten it I stay away from any silicone based adhesive because it self destructs and just doesn't exhibit standing up to the high heat the combustion pot gets to. I brought up what you had listed and it isn't even close to what I got. I'm still looking for the product. I did take a copy of the stove cement product. it's listed below.

[Keith]

Yep, that's exactly the same cement I used. I gave the wrong stock number earlier, it's 7573A29. They call it Hi Temp Silicate Adhesive. Silicate is different than silicone. You mentioned much earlier in this post the name and number of the mat material you used. I thought it was the same stuff I used, but thinner... .040" instead of .090".

So I solved my air flow problem!!! I removed the rubber elbow from the bottom of the combustion blower shroud and stuck my fingers up there to see if I could feel the damper, which i did. It's a little butterfly gate/flap about 5/8" wide or so and about 2" long. It rotates on the long axis. I also found out that with no power going to it, it's open; so it takes power to close it on low-med heating. I thought, "If I can keep this damper open just a hair, I can increase the air flow through the burn chamber just enough to get a good, clean burn. If I can adjust how much it's kept open, even better." So with my fingers on the inside of the shroud and my thumb on the outside, I figured out where the little flange is that the damper closes against. Then I drilled a tiny hole through the shroud immediately next to the flange on the side that the damper hits and put a tiny screw in it. I screwed it in just far enough to keep the damper open about 1/8" max. This is all estimated based on feeling things with my fingers, mind you. So I fired up the heater and... PRESTO!!! Purge is fine; ignition produces a blue flame; low-med burn produces a blue flame with a few white tips (and it heats faster than the yellow-orange flame); hi burn produces a blue flame with white tips and a yellow-green flash every couple seconds (still gotta figure that one out); and shut down and final purge is fine. Problem solved! Yipee!

By the way, I finally uploaded a bunch of photos of my 441 fixin'. If you go to my profile you should see my photo album named Monitor 441 Repair. Let me know if you can get to them.

Thanks again for your help so far!

[HayZee518]

I saw the pix. Now i need your permission to post them into the forum, proper under a "sticky." This will help any others that may need to see what was done.

[Keith]

You absolutely have my permission; PLEASE DO! My intent was to share them. I added one more pic with labels showing what I did to keep my damper open slightly, and my makeshift shroud plug.

It's been running like a champ for the last 24 hours! I have a near perfect flame at LO, LO-MED, MED-HI, and HI! Purging and ignition are working perfectly too! And my little window is crystal clear so I can watch the results of my handy work (and good luck)! I can't believe it; I actually got a 441 to run perfectly! Who'd a' thunk?! Thank you and the others for all your help!

[sick2400]

I have also been getting the e-13 error on my 2400. I have tried almost all of the things suggested in this thread. The only thing i havent tried is checking the combution blower flapper because im not sure where it is on the unit. I can hear it open and close though. I also popped the hose off the fan just after it and it seems to be blowing strong. My question now is how much fuel should come out of the fuel line. when i check it with the line disconnected from the pot it just drips out slowly like a drip ever half second or so. The ignitor is glowing and i will get a really crappy yellow flame for a little while then the burn light shuts off. I did a burner rebuild so all the guts inside are new and still the same results. I'm gonna buy a new fuel pump because I think i killed the old one messing with it(i took it all apart). Before i tampered with it was when i was getting the slow drip...now it does nothing. Does this sound like it was the fuel pump from the start.